This scene reminds me a little of Hugo's theatre. All dialogue (with facial expressions, and intonations, and the clothes and attitudes described before, but no introspection) ; use of Public Domain Character as myths and symbols, and not real persons nor even real characters ; and a lot of killer one-liners.
Also you could say, not very big respect of history (the dispute Vendée vs Germany is totally artificial and comes from nowhere but sure makes the exposition more lively, as dialogue is all we get for exposition) ; heavy foreshadowing ; mix of humor and tragedy (this chapter is the only one since the beginning which made me laugh at loud) ; but you could argue that Hugo regularly does this in his novels too.
I don't know enough to take every historical reference and explain what is true, what is not. But I should go to historian hell, because I know Robespierre, Danton and Marat are caricatures (or symbols, depending how you look at it), but I still love how they're written, how they're charismatic and frightening and funny in the discussion of trivialities all the same.
Yeah, even what little i know (and it is LITTLE) is enough to have me going "Hugo, no." But then it's not the first time he's thrown historical people in flavor text; in some ways this is easier to take than when I actually know the context and end up screaming YOU CAN'T JUST LIONIZE COLUMBUS LIKE THAT. I almost wish I could decouple my history-brain from my reader-brain at points here, because as you say, it is really effective at setting up a mood, and the Hugo-AU of these people are interesting characters, they just aren't quite...them.
Playing catchup. Long chapters+dense allusions I know nothing about=disjointed rambling.
"I have just read you the despatches from Prieur de la Marne…" So they’re discussing Lantenac, but he’s not directly named here.
"You each have your hobby; yours, Danton, is Prussia; yours, Robespierre, la Vendée. Now I will give my views. You do not see the real danger; it is here,—the cafés and the gaming-houses." Compare with 2.1.2: ""Ninety-three" was the war of Europe against France, and of France against Paris." We have Danton being concerned about the greater European theater, Robespierre worrying about the outskirts of France, and Marat focusing on the city itself. The republicans really need to deal with all three. Hmm, now that I think about it, the broad-scale structure of the book sort of works this way—Part One is "At Sea," with the English ship tying into the broad European scope. This one is "In Paris," and the third will be named after the Vendee.
"Ah! Citizen Danton, why did you bring me to your secret meeting, if it was not to have my advice? Did I ask you for permission to come? Far from it." That’s a good point, who’s in charge here? They’re all sort of distrusting the others but want the door open to those of their own faction.
"The danger is in the paper money, which is depreciating." Sure is, we mentioned that during 2.1.1 as well. But this seems to be a very different tone from that one. Someone brought up that the main characters are from the upper classes and we don’t get to see the common people’s take on the revolution—I wonder how much these guys are also separated from the general population in Paris and their experience of inflation.
…as this paragraph goes on, Marat mentions more and more of the average experience. “bread is worth three francs, twelve sous for four pounds, the theatres play immoral pieces, and Robespierre will have Danton guillotined.”
"Ugh!" said Danton.
Hate that when that happens.
Then the conversation, full of portentous repartees, began again.
"Listen, Marat; before marrying, we must become acquainted. How did you know what I said yesterday to Saint-Just?"
Portentous repartees, haha. I guess Marat was right that Robespierre would have Danton guillotined, Hugo can get away with some blatant “foreshadowing.” Why’s he telling these guys that he’s spying on them, though? Seems like the kind of thing you want to keep secret.
""Pretty boy, will you come up where I live?" muttered Marat." <- Is this just the setup for RPS?
"Well, as for me, I have always been alive; I am suffering humanity, I am six thousand years old." Does sound pretty ridiculous, but maybe makes a little more sense in the context of him seeming a little more in touch with the common people.
I know there was some mention—I think by @lifeisyetfair—of how Hugo’s been accused of confusing the Vendéen revolt with the Chouan revolt in Brittany. Here, Hugo has Robespierre say that the people of the Vendée are Britons. But I don’t know if that’s an actual confusion by the author or just a category lumping that people of the time would have done, because they wouldn’t have seen a real distinction.
I’m enjoying the dynamic between Robespierre, Danton and Marat. From what little I’ve seen of portrayals of the French Revolution, Robespierre usually comes off as ideologically rigid to the point of cruelty and Danton as softer and kinder, and Robespierre as coldly ascetic and Danton as endearingly hedonistic. It’s not like that here. While Robespierre is cooler than Danton here, it’s more calmness and prudence (Marat actually calls him a moderate) as opposed to Danton’s visible temper and frustration, rather than the usual dichotomies of frigidity versus joie-de-vivre or ideology versus humanity. The main policy difference between them is prioritizing external vs. internal war as the main threat. They’re both willing to be ruthless, and they’re both inexorable in pursuing their shared goals, but they differ on how to rank the threats. This seems more interesting, though I don’t know about the historical accuracy. I’m getting the distinct impression that it’s not remotely accurate. But it’s entertaining!
Marat is hilarious and scary at the same time. He says Robespierre isn’t even being internal-focused enough, that it’s Paris and not the Vendée that has the real threat of disunity, and he’s right to a point. He’s also prescient. But nevertheless, he’s scary in his pride in denouncing all those people. Some of his prescience is scary, too. It’s not remotely fair to denounce the criminal before the crime. And his talk of unity and fear of “anarchy” (i.e. conflicting voices) is clearly repressive, as is his advocacy of a dictatorship.
I love the bitch-fest between Robespierre and Marat where each just goes “Oh, yeah? Well, you did THIS politically-suspect thing a while back, so neener neener!” And then Danton tries to play peacemaker and just succeeds in starting his own bitch-fest with Marat. It’s all very kindergarten, and yet entirely believable. This is actually how mature adults behave.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2014-05-15 06:14 pm (UTC)Also you could say, not very big respect of history (the dispute Vendée vs Germany is totally artificial and comes from nowhere but sure makes the exposition more lively, as dialogue is all we get for exposition) ; heavy foreshadowing ; mix of humor and tragedy (this chapter is the only one since the beginning which made me laugh at loud) ; but you could argue that Hugo regularly does this in his novels too.
I don't know enough to take every historical reference and explain what is true, what is not. But I should go to historian hell, because I know Robespierre, Danton and Marat are caricatures (or symbols, depending how you look at it), but I still love how they're written, how they're charismatic and frightening and funny in the discussion of trivialities all the same.
no subject
Date: 2014-05-15 11:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-05-17 05:48 pm (UTC)"I have just read you the despatches from Prieur de la Marne…" So they’re discussing Lantenac, but he’s not directly named here.
"You each have your hobby; yours, Danton, is Prussia; yours, Robespierre, la Vendée. Now I will give my views. You do not see the real danger; it is here,—the cafés and the gaming-houses." Compare with 2.1.2: ""Ninety-three" was the war of Europe against France, and of France against Paris." We have Danton being concerned about the greater European theater, Robespierre worrying about the outskirts of France, and Marat focusing on the city itself. The republicans really need to deal with all three. Hmm, now that I think about it, the broad-scale structure of the book sort of works this way—Part One is "At Sea," with the English ship tying into the broad European scope. This one is "In Paris," and the third will be named after the Vendee.
"Ah! Citizen Danton, why did you bring me to your secret meeting, if it was not to have my advice? Did I ask you for permission to come? Far from it." That’s a good point, who’s in charge here? They’re all sort of distrusting the others but want the door open to those of their own faction.
"The danger is in the paper money, which is depreciating." Sure is, we mentioned that during 2.1.1 as well. But this seems to be a very different tone from that one. Someone brought up that the main characters are from the upper classes and we don’t get to see the common people’s take on the revolution—I wonder how much these guys are also separated from the general population in Paris and their experience of inflation.
…as this paragraph goes on, Marat mentions more and more of the average experience. “bread is worth three francs, twelve sous for four pounds, the theatres play immoral pieces, and Robespierre will have Danton guillotined.”
"Ugh!" said Danton.
Hate that when that happens.
Then the conversation, full of portentous repartees, began again.
"Listen, Marat; before marrying, we must become acquainted. How did you know what I said yesterday to Saint-Just?"
Portentous repartees, haha. I guess Marat was right that Robespierre would have Danton guillotined, Hugo can get away with some blatant “foreshadowing.” Why’s he telling these guys that he’s spying on them, though? Seems like the kind of thing you want to keep secret.
""Pretty boy, will you come up where I live?" muttered Marat." <- Is this just the setup for RPS?
"Well, as for me, I have always been alive; I am suffering humanity, I am six thousand years old." Does sound pretty ridiculous, but maybe makes a little more sense in the context of him seeming a little more in touch with the common people.
2.2.2
Date: 2014-05-19 01:17 am (UTC)I’m enjoying the dynamic between Robespierre, Danton and Marat. From what little I’ve seen of portrayals of the French Revolution, Robespierre usually comes off as ideologically rigid to the point of cruelty and Danton as softer and kinder, and Robespierre as coldly ascetic and Danton as endearingly hedonistic. It’s not like that here. While Robespierre is cooler than Danton here, it’s more calmness and prudence (Marat actually calls him a moderate) as opposed to Danton’s visible temper and frustration, rather than the usual dichotomies of frigidity versus joie-de-vivre or ideology versus humanity. The main policy difference between them is prioritizing external vs. internal war as the main threat. They’re both willing to be ruthless, and they’re both inexorable in pursuing their shared goals, but they differ on how to rank the threats. This seems more interesting, though I don’t know about the historical accuracy. I’m getting the distinct impression that it’s not remotely accurate. But it’s entertaining!
Marat is hilarious and scary at the same time. He says Robespierre isn’t even being internal-focused enough, that it’s Paris and not the Vendée that has the real threat of disunity, and he’s right to a point. He’s also prescient. But nevertheless, he’s scary in his pride in denouncing all those people. Some of his prescience is scary, too. It’s not remotely fair to denounce the criminal before the crime. And his talk of unity and fear of “anarchy” (i.e. conflicting voices) is clearly repressive, as is his advocacy of a dictatorship.
I love the bitch-fest between Robespierre and Marat where each just goes “Oh, yeah? Well, you did THIS politically-suspect thing a while back, so neener neener!” And then Danton tries to play peacemaker and just succeeds in starting his own bitch-fest with Marat. It’s all very kindergarten, and yet entirely believable. This is actually how mature adults behave.