If I met Victor Hugo, and we got over the language barrier, and his ideas about womanhood, and for whatever reason he was cool with me being a pretty boring churchgoing type, what obstacles to communication would remain between us? I’m gonna say he would still have a hard time taking me seriously, because above and beyond all that, I’m also (trying to be) a mathematician. So while I’m trying (with mixed success) to understand Godel’s theorems and the ZFC axioms, I think it’s going to take him a while to not be scared by my “pitiless” logic, perhaps even lacking in “reason.”
So. Cimourdain. "then a little inheritance fell to him, and he became free." As opposed to? Did he find his tutoring career lacking in freedom?
"He spoke Spanish to Gusman, Italian to Pio, English to Arthur, Flemish to Pereyra, German to the Austrian Proly, bastard son of a prince." I think this is cute. He’s very talented, and he can put his talents to good use, bringing an "understanding" among different people.
Anecdotes from his past; he literally saves a guy’s life by sucking a tumor out of his mouth (!?) or something. So he’s capable of applying himself to directly helping other people. He also enjoys symbolic gestures, like demolishing a statue of the king and sending part of it to a longtime prisoner. (Would Hugo have been for or against destroying statues? I guess symbolic blows against the old regime=good but trashing old architecture=less good?)
Uh let’s see we’ve got some more Greek allusions with Athens and/or Sparta again. The extreme Evêché convention contains men “worthy of Sparta.” Cimourdain wants the Revolution to be more than just “Minerva,” the Roman goddess of wisdom, but also “Pallas” [Athena], the Greek equivalent. Athena is also associated with (and I’m just quoting Wikipedia here) “civilization, law and justice, just warfare, mathematics [yo!], strength, strategy…” but she’s the namesake of cultured Athens, too.
I didn’t remember some of the way they’d phrased the introduction—he’s not an easy guy to like, at first. “Science had destroyed his faith…he had been refused a wife.” Contrast this to Myriel, who’d been married, and…I’m not sure what we’re supposed to make of his interest in animals and plants, but I get the feeling he wouldn’t view science as incompatible with faith. Cimourdain sort of feels like he’s getting into strawman territory here. But, anyway, I think the contrast with Myriel is useful to point out that this isn’t a one-size-fits-all view of priests. Cimourdain is just naturally given to absolutes, and he’ll go to the logical extremes of his ideology, no matter what circumstances prescribe that ideology.
I’d like to read him as an asexual character, but ergh, the “It was forbidden him to love” comes off as a little weird too. (Full disclosure: a lot of my favorites in Les Mis (and elsewhere, honestly, but especially Les Mis) I read as, if not “asexual,” just “very much part of a gen rather than shippy narrative,” and seek out fanfiction accordingly. The same goes for Ninety-Three, I think, at least as regards Cimourdain and maybe a couple other characters.)
"He was a spotless man who thought himself infallible." "Thought himself"? Granted that this is a little one-sided narration, but I think there can be a more objective case for him as "infallible." That’s not necessarily a good thing, mind you—just not a case for modesty on his part.
"There was no half way for a priest in revolution." He understands "the absolute" and is committed to it, for better and for worse.
"No one to-day knows his name. History has more than one such terrible Unknown." He’s also, and I hate to break it to you, a fictional character, which is why these extremes are allowable and why nobody remembers his name in 1874 or indeed today. But, you know, I guess the point stands.
I’d like to read him as an asexual character, but ergh, the “It was forbidden him to love” comes off as a little weird too. Isn't it explicit that studies help him to bear chastity? If he needs this kind of help, to me, he doesn't sound asexual, just celibate.
Did he find his tutoring career lacking in freedom? Maybe it did? Private teachers were kind of domestics living in the master's house and having him determine most part of their schedule.
Ha ha, I don't think Hugo's "logic" had anything to do with maths. But he hated maths from his childhood, as some literaray types do, and this has the double consequence that when he talks about logic he doesn't think about maths at all, nad that conversation would be indeed difficult. But in Les Misérables, Combeferre is the scientific type and Enjolras is "the logac of the revolution", so I really think, no connection here.
Isn't it explicit that studies help him to bear chastity? Yep, you're right! I'd forgotten that from the first time around, so it's good that I'm rereading.
Skipping ahead to reread the end, I think there's a side to Cimourdain that appreciates logic and math because of their absoluteness, leaving no middle ground, and that Hugo wants to criticize--there's more to life than logic. (Enjolras' logic is probably similar. But good point about Combeferre, maybe the more moderate, humane one also appreciating science! Maybe because it has peaceful real-world applications, not just abstractions?)
After reading Les Mis, I can’t help comparing Cimourdain to Enjolras. There are a whole lot of obvious similarities: the priesthood, the gravity, the chastity, the absolutism, the ruthless logic (logic, not reason), the description as “l’homme juste,” the ability to command respect from a motley crew, the adoption of country as family, the belief in meeting their violent situations with violence, the belief in the necessity of a sudden shock to social systems, the avenging angel and Themis and Saint-Just comparisons, the attempts to restrain those on their side. But then there are the differences. There’s the obvious and amusing fact that Hugo doesn’t drool over Cimourdain’s looks (though he shares Enjolras’s large forehead!). More substantively, there’s the night imagery, the night within Cimourdain, the virtues that can only glisten out from within shadows. There’s the statement of the emptiness that comes from his plenitude, the belief that he is infallible, the fact that no one has seen him cry. There’s the hatred, too, the hatred Cimourdain bears for all that opposes him, including the hatred of his own priesthood. Enjolras is not driven by hatred, nor is he surrounded by night imagery. On the contrary, he gets imagery of the dawn and the sun, and there’s no mention of him hating anyone if I remember right. And then there’s the extreme but exclusive pity that Cimourdain has. He would suck out the abscess of the man on the street, but not the king. Enjolras would probably do neither: he wouldn’t feel any extreme pity for the man on the street (as a matter of principle he would fight for his rights, but that’s not the same as feeling pity or going to great lengths to succor him personally), but whatever pity he did feel for humanity, he wouldn’t carve out an exception for the king out of spite or hate or even disapproval, though he would be okay with executing the king if politically necessary. Cimourdain’s celibacy is also explicitly described as repression, and while there’s room to interpret Enjolras as repressed, it’s not an explicit feature of his character.
Cimourdain keeps his priestly vows through pride, not faith—he develops faith in the republic, but devotion to the republic is not why he keeps his vows. Pride in what? Self-control? Honor?
There’s also a difference between Cimourdain’s envisioning of a republic that hasn’t existed at all in the recent past in his own country (at most, he has America and ancient Greece to go on), and Enjolras’s hearkening back to a republican tradition, glorifying its virtues and correcting its flaws.
Hugo describes the events of 1793 thus: France defeats Europe and Paris defeats France. That illuminates two interesting facts: (1) that the revolution set France against Europe, and (2) that republicanism and nationalism are both born and shaped in cosmopolitan cities, not in the hinterlands. This is why Michelle Fléchard doesn’t call herself French, but instead identifies herself by her region.
(I am spamming you with replies all over the place because your analysis is so on-point but it feels weird to reblog just to add one line at the end, also because I cannot into Dreamwidth threading!)
Not tl;dr at all, you've got some great insight on this section! I like the contrast with Enjolras re: the abscess and the king...the parallels are explicit, but while I can't put my finger on what it is about Enjolras that distinguishes him from Cimourdain here, it's a really good analysis.
And yeah, I think the Cimourdain-Enjolras parallels are pretty unavoidable. But Enjolras was completely love-based, even if it did get kinda wacky and abstract at times, and Cimourdain is,as you say, really really not. I think it's the effect of being separated from "the people"-- like I said on my post, I think priesthood might work fine for some, but for Cimourdain the last thing he needed was a hierarchical structure apart from the variety and change of the usual society. It's really sort of painful for me to read about him, and see a lot of recognizable and recognizably excellent aspects that are just kind of twisted by his belief that love, in totality, not just in a carnal sense, is something he's not meant to be having truck with.
I do note that we know what Cimourdain's against, already, but I wonder if we'll ever find out exactly what he's FOR? What does his Ideal Future Republic look like?
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2014-05-12 11:31 pm (UTC)So. Cimourdain.
"then a little inheritance fell to him, and he became free." As opposed to? Did he find his tutoring career lacking in freedom?
"He spoke Spanish to Gusman, Italian to Pio, English to Arthur, Flemish to Pereyra, German to the Austrian Proly, bastard son of a prince." I think this is cute. He’s very talented, and he can put his talents to good use, bringing an "understanding" among different people.
Anecdotes from his past; he literally saves a guy’s life by sucking a tumor out of his mouth (!?) or something. So he’s capable of applying himself to directly helping other people. He also enjoys symbolic gestures, like demolishing a statue of the king and sending part of it to a longtime prisoner. (Would Hugo have been for or against destroying statues? I guess symbolic blows against the old regime=good but trashing old architecture=less good?)
Uh let’s see we’ve got some more Greek allusions with Athens and/or Sparta again. The extreme Evêché convention contains men “worthy of Sparta.” Cimourdain wants the Revolution to be more than just “Minerva,” the Roman goddess of wisdom, but also “Pallas” [Athena], the Greek equivalent. Athena is also associated with (and I’m just quoting Wikipedia here) “civilization, law and justice, just warfare, mathematics [yo!], strength, strategy…” but she’s the namesake of cultured Athens, too.
I didn’t remember some of the way they’d phrased the introduction—he’s not an easy guy to like, at first. “Science had destroyed his faith…he had been refused a wife.” Contrast this to Myriel, who’d been married, and…I’m not sure what we’re supposed to make of his interest in animals and plants, but I get the feeling he wouldn’t view science as incompatible with faith. Cimourdain sort of feels like he’s getting into strawman territory here. But, anyway, I think the contrast with Myriel is useful to point out that this isn’t a one-size-fits-all view of priests. Cimourdain is just naturally given to absolutes, and he’ll go to the logical extremes of his ideology, no matter what circumstances prescribe that ideology.
I’d like to read him as an asexual character, but ergh, the “It was forbidden him to love” comes off as a little weird too. (Full disclosure: a lot of my favorites in Les Mis (and elsewhere, honestly, but especially Les Mis) I read as, if not “asexual,” just “very much part of a gen rather than shippy narrative,” and seek out fanfiction accordingly. The same goes for Ninety-Three, I think, at least as regards Cimourdain and maybe a couple other characters.)
"He was a spotless man who thought himself infallible." "Thought himself"? Granted that this is a little one-sided narration, but I think there can be a more objective case for him as "infallible." That’s not necessarily a good thing, mind you—just not a case for modesty on his part.
"There was no half way for a priest in revolution." He understands "the absolute" and is committed to it, for better and for worse.
"No one to-day knows his name. History has more than one such terrible Unknown." He’s also, and I hate to break it to you, a fictional character, which is why these extremes are allowable and why nobody remembers his name in 1874 or indeed today. But, you know, I guess the point stands.
no subject
Date: 2014-05-12 11:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-05-13 06:03 am (UTC)Isn't it explicit that studies help him to bear chastity? If he needs this kind of help, to me, he doesn't sound asexual, just celibate.
Did he find his tutoring career lacking in freedom?
Maybe it did? Private teachers were kind of domestics living in the master's house and having him determine most part of their schedule.
Ha ha, I don't think Hugo's "logic" had anything to do with maths. But he hated maths from his childhood, as some literaray types do, and this has the double consequence that when he talks about logic he doesn't think about maths at all, nad that conversation would be indeed difficult.
But in Les Misérables, Combeferre is the scientific type and Enjolras is "the logac of the revolution", so I really think, no connection here.
no subject
Date: 2014-05-13 06:08 am (UTC)Skipping ahead to reread the end, I think there's a side to Cimourdain that appreciates logic and math because of their absoluteness, leaving no middle ground, and that Hugo wants to criticize--there's more to life than logic. (Enjolras' logic is probably similar. But good point about Combeferre, maybe the more moderate, humane one also appreciating science! Maybe because it has peaceful real-world applications, not just abstractions?)
Late and also tl;dr: 2.1.2
Date: 2014-05-18 01:46 am (UTC)Cimourdain keeps his priestly vows through pride, not faith—he develops faith in the republic, but devotion to the republic is not why he keeps his vows. Pride in what? Self-control? Honor?
There’s also a difference between Cimourdain’s envisioning of a republic that hasn’t existed at all in the recent past in his own country (at most, he has America and ancient Greece to go on), and Enjolras’s hearkening back to a republican tradition, glorifying its virtues and correcting its flaws.
Hugo describes the events of 1793 thus: France defeats Europe and Paris defeats France. That illuminates two interesting facts: (1) that the revolution set France against Europe, and (2) that republicanism and nationalism are both born and shaped in cosmopolitan cities, not in the hinterlands. This is why Michelle Fléchard doesn’t call herself French, but instead identifies herself by her region.
The “Evêché” or Bishopric, which Cimourdain is involved in, was an actual club (see French Wikipedia: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_de_l%E2%80%99%C3%89v%C3%AAch%C3%A9) of which Gracchus Babeuf (see English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois-No%C3%ABl_Babeuf) was a member. Don’t know how accurate either of those two articles are, but they give a sketch of commonly said things about the Club and Babeuf.
Re: Late and also tl;dr: 2.1.2
Date: 2014-05-19 02:39 am (UTC)Not tl;dr at all, you've got some great insight on this section! I like the contrast with Enjolras re: the abscess and the king...the parallels are explicit, but while I can't put my finger on what it is about Enjolras that distinguishes him from Cimourdain here, it's a really good analysis.
Re: Late and also tl;dr: 2.1.2
Date: 2014-05-19 03:19 am (UTC)And yeah, I think the Cimourdain-Enjolras parallels are pretty unavoidable. But Enjolras was completely love-based, even if it did get kinda wacky and abstract at times, and Cimourdain is,as you say, really really not. I think it's the effect of being separated from "the people"-- like I said on my post, I think priesthood might work fine for some, but for Cimourdain the last thing he needed was a hierarchical structure apart from the variety and change of the usual society. It's really sort of painful for me to read about him, and see a lot of recognizable and recognizably excellent aspects that are just kind of twisted by his belief that love, in totality, not just in a carnal sense, is something he's not meant to be having truck with.
I do note that we know what Cimourdain's against, already, but I wonder if we'll ever find out exactly what he's FOR? What does his Ideal Future Republic look like?